E-mail a friendPeggy Noonan
airdate October 10, 2008
Peggy Noonan is a Wall Street Journal columnist and the best-selling author of seven books on American politics, history and culture. She's also been nominated for Emmys for writing a post-9/11 TV special and for her work on the drama series, The West Wing. Noonan was a special assistant to President Reagan and chief speechwriter for Vice President George Bush as he ran for the presidency. The native New Yorker was also a producer at CBS News, where she wrote and produced Dan Rather's daily radio commentary.
Columnist defines patriotism as used in her new book and discusses the second presidential debate. (3:37)
Full interview. (12:02)
Peggy Noonan
Tavis: Peggy Noonan is a former speech writer for Ronald Reagan, who is now a widely-read and influential columnist for "The Wall Street Journal." She is also a best-selling author whose latest book is called "Patriotic Grace: What It Is and Why We Need It Now." She joins us tonight from New York. Peggy Noonan, nice to have you on the program.
Peggy Noonan: It's great to be here, Tavis. Thank you very much.
Tavis: Like the great speech writer that you are, the title of the book gets right to the point. "Patriot Grace: What It Is and Why We Need It Now." Let's start with the first part. What is it?
Noonan: Patriotic grace to me is knowing what time it is in history, knowing that we face not just extraordinary challenges - America always does - but actually unprecedented ones, I think, with regard to economic matters, of course, but also to our national security, focusing on that and realizing, well, if we're in an extraordinary historical moment, then the way we do our politics, the way we talk about it, write about it and execute it each day in Washington and in state capitals, we ought to raise our game.
We just ought to be doing it better with more dignity, with more seriousness - I'm big on the word seriousness, not somberness - but serious candor and honesty about what we face and how we got to deal with it. So it's just my little rallying cry to say, "Guys, get serious. We're at a big moment here. Be its equal."
Tavis: Let's wrestle then with that word "serious." Give me an example specifically where patriotic grace ought to be more on the table and we are failing with regard to the seriousness of it on a particular issue. Give me an example here.
Noonan: I'll give you an example from just the other night, the debate between Senators McCain and Obama. It was all about the economy. They had every chance, both of them, to be very serious about what's happening and to be honest about the fact that it was both of our political parties in Washington that were involved in the machinations and decisions and policies that really led to this collapse.
I just thought such candor and honesty, first of all, it's needed, you know. But second of all, it's the only thing people would believe. If you are honest with people about the causes of something, if you make an honest diagnosis, then people will understand. Okay, you're thinking clearly, maybe you can help us through this. If you're not honest about the causes, then it's a missed opportunity. It's not being candid with the nation, it's not being serious.
Tavis: But since when, Peggy - I like what you're saying and I totally agree with this latter point here. I was in a conversation the other night with some people and I was trying to make the point that running for president - this is really true for all of us. What you do, what I do, we each have to make decisions with regularity about whether or not we're gonna side with truth or go for the power. And running for president really is a battle, as I see it, of truth versus power.
Are you gonna be a truth teller or are you gonna be a power grabber? The closer you get to the power, the truth gets sacrificed. That's awfully true of running for president, so what is it about running for president that makes you or me think that we ever are going to get the kind of truth that we need when we know what they really want is the power?
Noonan: We know they do want power and the parties behind each of the candidates really, really want power. I understand that. I also understand that, look, decisions in politics particularly at this point in a big presidential campaign are made on the fly.
I understand all that and yet, when you come right down to it, two big things are happening right now. One is our economic life and one is our national security life, if you will. These are big things. If they don't call candor and honesty from a candidate, holy mackerel, what will, you know (laughter)? I just don't see any way around it.
Tavis: What do you make of - put another way, assess for me the conversation or lack thereof or the pseudo conversation that we had earlier this summer about patriotism. I take you back to McCain and Obama and the flag and Obama and the lapel pin and Obama giving the patriotism speech and trying to redefine it and Jeremiah Wright. I mean, just assess for me this issue of patriotism in this campaign vis-à-vis McCain and Obama.
Noonan: Well, sometimes I think we forget as a nation that patriotism is not a weapon to be wielded. Patriotism is an honest love for country. In the case of America, there is so much to love.
I make a case in the book that we ought to be doing a better job of teaching our history, a more loving - not sentimental - but a more loving and vital job of teaching our history because that teaches our kids and our new Americans who are never told this what it is they've joined and what it is they're coming up in.
On the lapel pin thing, I wrote a little piece saying, "You know, any cynic can wear a pin and many cynics do." In a practical sense, I thought, since it was becoming an issue, fine. Let it go. Wear the lapel pin.
But in a more serious way, just wearing a lapel pin doesn't show your heart is in the right place. It doesn't show that you're actually thinking about your country. You could be any number of wicked things (laughter) and still, you know, make a great show of your patriotism. So it doesn't prove that much, does it?
That having been said, I like wearing the flag. As I note in the book, the little safety pin flag that I started wearing after 9/11 that I picked up on a shop in New York, I am wearing again because I want my country to hold together. It's a safety pin and safety pins hold things together.
So patriotism that is honest love of country, there can never be too much. Jingoism, we don't need. Braying, bragging, "We are number one," we don't need that. But honest love of country is a good thing. It inspires you.
Tavis: That's what disturbs me, though. I think that we have - and I love the country as much as anybody else. Wouldn't want to live anywhere else for my own take on it in the world. I've been in a lot of great places, but I love America and want to be here. That said, I sense, Peggy, that too many of us have moved from patriotism to nationalism and that disturbs me.
Noonan: That disturbs me for the future actually. A trend that I wonder if we're not going to see of nationalism in many countries. You know, pride in your country separated from knowledge of your country, knowledge of what it means in the world, knowledge of what it was meant to be, knowledge of our beautiful beginnings, that can be a negative thing, you know.
That can turn lovely patriotism into what we see at soccer matches in Europe, you know (laughter), where they paint their faces and smack each other around and run on the field and cause all sorts of havoc. I'm sort of teasing about that, but I'm sort of not. Nationalism isn't what the world needs, but honest love of country is a good thing.
Tavis: When I think of patriotism - I want to try this out on you and get your take on this because it's a nice book you've written here, a good book. But when I think of patriotism, I always find myself as a Black man going back to Frederick Douglass's definition of patriotism, the great abolitionist.
Douglass says, Peggy, that "a true patriot is a lover of his country who rebukes and does not excuse its sins." A true patriot is a lover of his country. There's that Noonan formulation. A lover of his country who rebukes and does not excuse its sins.
I put that out there because I was troubled and I am troubled by this conversation we have, again, pseudo conversation, about real patriotism because it's as if you have to love the country and wave the flag and wear the lapel pin to be a patriot or to serve militarily, but if you're rebuking your country and not excusing its sins and challenging it and trying to make it as good as its promise, you don't get labeled a patriot.
Noonan: Well, sometimes I suppose it's delicate, but it is our job as Americans to make America better and to put it right. This is a human institution, this great nation. It's full of humans. We make mistakes all the time and we will make mistakes as a nation.
It is good to attempt to correct your nation. When people know that you're coming from an honest love that involves a protectiveness, you know, and a sense of "We got to take care of this wonderful thing and part of taking care of it is making it better, you know, improving it," aw, heck, that's okay.
I'll tell you, things get lost. I understand what you're saying, Tavis. An election year is not a time for subtlety (laughter). Do you know what I mean? There's a lot of subtlety. It just gets lost, doesn't it? It becomes vulgar and braying and full of the wielding of symbols, you know. But as adults, we got to step back and be more serious about it.
Tavis: Are you hopeful that we can get this patriotism thing right? This is the most multicultural, multiracial, multiethnic America. You intimated that earlier, talking about new Americans. We're not going back to those days of just Black and White.
This is a multicultural, multiracial, multiethnic place. We have a president potentially who may be a person of color in this world, as you suggested earlier that is becoming more nationalistic. Are you hopeful that we can find the patriotic grace and get it right?
Noonan: Yeah, I am, and I still think the key - and I harp on this a little bit - is to remind people what our country is. It isn't just something that was invented thirty years ago so that you could watch TV (laughter). Do you know what I mean? It's got a long history. It's a great place, but a place of real meaning. There's so much to be proud of and it doesn't stop with George Washington and it doesn't stop with Frederick Douglass.
It is a marvelous place, but you have to know what it is you're loving to successfully love it. Do you know what I mean? We got to teach it to our kids and teach it to our new Americans. If they aren't taught about this wonderful thing that they have joined, they will not adhere to it as much as the immigrants of the past, my people. So I sort of think that is the key.
And it's also key to remember that we go through each day thinking we're relatively safe, up until recently relatively prosperous and indeed the signs of prosperity are still around. But someday in the future, we may go through a hard moment and we're gonna have to hold on together to get through it and it may even be tough to get through it. It's only a real deep love of your country that can help you hold on to each other.
Tavis: Even when one doesn't agree with everything she has to say, her pieces in "The Wall Street Journal" are a must-reading for me and a whole lot of other people, obviously. Her new book is called "Patriotic Grace: What It Is and Why We Need It Now." Her name, of course, Peggy Noonan. Peggy Noonan, a delight to have you on. Thanks for the text and thanks for your insight.
Noonan: Thanks a lot, Tavis.
Tavis: My pleasure.
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