E-mail a friendTom Morello
airdate October 1, 2008
Famed for his unique style, Tom Morello is one of the most influential guitarists in modern rock. He performed with the bands Rage Against the Machine and Audioslave and played on the Talladega Nights film score. Since '04, he's also performed as a solo acoustic artist, combining activism and music, under the pseudonym The Nightwatchman. Known for his outspoken politics, the Harvard alum co-founded Axis of Justice, an organization that focuses on peace, human rights and economic justice issues.
Musician-activist tells the story of Rage Against the Machines run-in with riot police at the conventions. (4:10)
Full interview. (11:36)
Tom Morello
Tavis: Tom Morello is a two-time Grammy-winning musician who has sold more than 30 million albums with the bands Rage Against the Machine and Audioslave. This week he's out with his second solo project under the name The Nightwatchman. The disc is called "The Fabled City." Here now, some of the video for the single "Whatever it Takes."
[Clip]
Tavis: Tom, always glad to have you on the program.
Tom Morello: Thanks very much for having me back - I appreciate it.
Tavis: My pleasure. Before I get to the CD, I got a bone to pick with you. So I was in (laughter) - we broadcast this show live from both the Democratic and Republican conventions, as you may know. So we were in Denver for one week and then in St. Paul the next week. So one night, as I was trying to escape, having been at the convention center in St. Paul long enough, covering my Republican friends -
Morello: I got a feeling I know what's coming.
Tavis: Yeah, I think you know what's coming. (Laughter) I'm trying to leave the building - my hotel couldn't have been more than 15 minutes from the convention center - took me two hours to get back to my hotel.
Morello: Guilty as charged.
Tavis: I got back to my hotel, turned on the news to find out what the heck was going on, why did it take me two hours to go 15 minutes? Because Tom Morello had caused a ruckus outside the convention center, and all the traffic had been rerouted, the police were directing people. I wanted to go north, they made me go south. So I got a bone to pick with you.
Morello: Well, I'd say come on. (Laughter)
Tavis: What were you doing out there?
Morello: You and I both know or suspect that a ruckus was right to be caused in the street in that city on that day.
Tavis: But next time, send me a BlackBerry - send me a text or something, let me know.
Morello: To let you know, all right, all right. (Laughter)
Tavis: Let me know. "Tavis, tonight it's going down. Leave early or leave late, go this direction." What were you doing out there?
Morello: Well, there was a Rage Against the Machine schedule performance for early evening, and when we arrived at the show we were immediately surrounded by riot police who said that if we approached the stage, we would be arrested. Now we were - it was a scheduled performance, they said we weren't on the permit, we showed them the permit - none of the artists for the day were listed on it. It was just an excuse to keep the band from playing.
Now imagine if during the Beijing Olympics if some Chinese musician or artist who was critical of the government was told that if they approached the stage or had a song to sing or something to say that was critical of the government that they would be arrested and thrown in jail, it would be an international human rights outcry.
That's exactly what happened to our band there. But we managed to circumvent the police line, went into the middle of the crowd of 5,000 of our closest friends, and with a couple of bullhorns managed to actually do some a capella performances.
Tavis: You went to both conventions why?
Morello: Well, at the Democratic convention, we - I played a number of shows, both with Rage and Nightwatchman shows on my own, but at the Democratic convention we played a show in support of an organization called Iraq Veterans Against the War to support their demands for an immediate end to the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, supporting veterans when they come home, and making reparations.
And it was actually a pretty dramatic confrontation there as the veterans, 60 or 70 veterans in full military garb, and 10,000 Rage Against the Machine fans marched from the gig to the Pepsi Center, where the way was barred by 700 police who originally suggested that they take their protest into the "free speech zone," which was known derisively as the "Freedom Cage," as it was a blacktop parking lot with a fence around it. (Laughter) Where you could speak freely all day and all night in that cage.
Tavis: The Freedom Cage.
Morello: All you wanted to do. But these are - one thing that George W. Bush and I have in common is neither one of us has served under fire. Well, these men and women had, so they weren't going to take that, so they marched right through to door of the Pepsi Center, and after a pretty dramatic confrontation, which five officers actually walked off duty rather than arrest or teargas the veterans, the Obama campaign acceded to their demands and allowed them to meet with the veterans' liaison to present their case.
Tavis: So does that mean, then, that at both conventions what you set out to do, you accomplished? Were you successful in your mission at both conventions?
Morello: Well, I'd say certainly at the Democratic - getting the Iraq Veterans Against the War message into the convention hall was a key thing there. And at the RNC, I guess causing a ruckus was one of the things we set out to do, but just to provide a voice for the millions of Americans who do not feel represented by the delegates in the building at the RNC.
Tavis: How are you feeling personally about this campaign, about the candidates? I know from our last conversation, and your fans certainly know this, that you and Obama - you mentioned a moment ago what you and George Bush have in common; you and Obama have something in common - White mother, Kenyan father.
Morello: That's right. Both went to Harvard at the same time.
Tavis: Exactly.
Morello: It's kind of eerie. My take is on the one hand, I think that the ideological parameters of both parties are pretty narrow, and while I think an Obama presidency would certainly be a huge step, given the way that the racism is so inextricably linked with the DNA of this country, for it to have a somewhat progressive-minded African American in the White House would be a huge step towards civilization, I still think that as the Democrats proved two years ago when they were elected to end the war in Iraq and they rolled over like "Beverly Hills Chihuahua," (laughter) you can't - those of us who are in favor of ending the war, human rights and economic justice, our work begins the day after the election, no matter who's in the White House.
Tavis: So the other night - my own view is, and I want to get yours; who cares about mine - my own view is that this foreign policy debate was really flat. I wasn't bowled over by either Obama or McCain, quite frankly. And to your point, I think that we have to celebrate the fact that an Obama presidency, I would hope, would portend progressive possibilities for the country and certainly for persons of color.
But that debate really was flat for me. Since you're raising these issues about foreign policy, did you see anything in that debate that made you -
Morello: Well, there was a couple of things that made me very, very nervous; the fact that Obama wants to basically extend the Bush doctrine and this kind of - like we have a right to strike first at any country where we think there might be an enemy. Now, what sort of message does that send? Is that something that - if that's a precedent, if foreign nation believe that they have an enemy somewhere within the bounds of the United States, then they can do air strikes here?
Like, this idea that we're just sort of the military and economic kings of the planet and can attack any country at any time is one of the things that's gotten us into this horrible situation to begin with, and those are things that are gross violations of the Geneva Convention to begin with.
The fact that the Democratic candidate is suggesting that is very, very worrisome, and why I think we have to be extra vigilant, no matter who's elected. But I will say, like, there are four kind of cultural, iconic pillars of America, and they are baseball, apple pie, NASCAR, and racism. And the fact that one of those (laughter) - the fact that one of those might be undermined by an Obama presidency is definitely, like I said, a step towards civilization.
Tavis: To the CD, The Nightwatchman, this is your second entry, second offer as The Nightwatchman. For those who don't recall this from the first conversation, the name The Nightwatchman comes from where, and how political is this CD as compared to the last one?
Morello: Sure. I began writing and singing acoustic songs at local open mike nights and coffee houses in the middle of my arena rock career with Audioslave as a way to express my world view through the music I did, and it's something that really caught fire. And for me it's been, like, the biggest artistic growth since I learned how to play guitar solos.
The main difference between this record and the previous one is this is a much more fleshed-out musical affair. It's like it incorporates more of the elements of my rock guitar playing, solos, guitar riffs and things like that. Originally I wanted there to be a real firewall between what I did as an acoustic artist and as an electric artist, but on this record I like the idea of combining the two.
Tavis: "The Fabled City" suggests what?
Morello: Well, "The Fabled City" is about the idea that there are tens, hundreds of millions, maybe billions of people on this planet who are not able to become the people they were born to be, that they were meant to be, to fulfill their wishes and dreams, because of crushing poverty. And we couldn't have the boutiques in Beverly Hills without the sweatshops of Indonesia.
That's the idea of "The Fabled City." There's this kind of consumerist paradise where the streets are paved with gold, but for many people, there's an iron fence around it, and the iron gate's closed.
Tavis: You must really be disappointed, then, as I am and I suspect others are, that in this campaign for the White House, the word poverty didn't come up one time in the debate that night, not once.
Morello: Hell, no. Yeah, yeah.
Tavis: But we still got two more to go; we'll see if they can even utter the word poverty in these next couple of debates. But your sense of why this issue of poverty, which is so important, has not been raised in this campaign?
Morello: I think it's crystal clear, and I think it's an insult to the idea that this is a democracy - that every word that comes out of either candidate's mouth and their choices for vice president candidates are all run and manufactured by public relations firms. Like the idea that it's not candidates that have these positions, it's PR firms that decide well, if you say poverty that might get you in trouble with this demographic - say middle class, that's what's going to get you the vote in Wisconsin.
Tavis: Well, that's what I thought was so funny, that Obama comes out the next day and his major talking point is criticizing McCain for never having said the word middle class.
Morello: Yeah. (Laughter)
Tavis: That was the talking point - he never said the word middle class.
Morello: Exactly, exactly.
Tavis: And I'm like, well, neither one of y'all said the word poverty. (Laughter)
Morello: Like I said, and I think that reinforces what we were talking about earlier, that there are very narrow parameters of the ideas that - I worked for a U.S. senator for two years, as Alan Cranston's -
Tavis: Out of California.
Morello: Yes - scheduling secretary. And one of the major lessons that I learned from that, and he was as progressive as any guy that's ever been in the U.S. Senate, one of the major lessons I learned from that was he spent 80 percent of the time I was with him asking rich guys for money. And you can have a great position on the environment or the war or this and that, but that money doesn't come for free.
And at the end of the day, you're beholden to the interests - the funnel gets narrower and narrower the higher you rise in elected office, and so mentioning poverty may not get you the votes that mentioning some other things might.
Tavis: Let me ask a strange question. Your fans obviously love the fact that you are courageous in your lyrical content, that you are a truth-teller. They have to love that. I wonder, though, if you ever hear from them that sometimes that gets in the way of the music, that they want Tom to give them something that just really bears down on his musical talent.
Morello: At last, a love song. (Laughter)
Tavis: I wasn't quite looking for a love song, but you know.
Morello: That territory I think is pretty well covered by a lot of other artists.
Tavis: Yeah, I got you.
Morello: You get ringtones up and down that take care of all that. But I think one of the things that fans of whether it's of Rage Against the Machine or The Nightwatchman, one of the things that they appreciate and one of the reasons why I chose music rather than a career in politics is because you're able to be unfettered and unapologetic and uncompromising in every lyric you write, in every song you sing.
And that's something that I think is so rare in sort of the political arena, with a capital "P," that I think that that's why Rage has had an audience, and why people are drawn to this music as well.
Tavis: I love talking to Tom Morello. He knows that he has an open invitation to this program pretty much any time he wants to come and talk, because the conversation is always so rich and his talent so profound. His new CD under the name The Nightwatchman, his second solo offering under The Nightwatchman. This one's called "The Fabled City." Tom Morello, always glad to have you on.
Morello: Thank you very much.
Tavis: Good to see you, man.
Back to October 1, 2008