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• About The Great Transformation

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Tavis: Karen Armstrong is a noted religious scholar and author of more than 15 books on religion. She's also a former Catholic nun who earned the nickname 'Runaway Nun' following her outspoken opinions about the Catholic Church. More on that later. Her most recent book is called "The Great Transformation, The Beginning of Our Religious Traditions.' Karen Armstrong, nice to have you on this program.

Karen Armstrong: Thank you very much, Tavis.

Tavis: Let me get right to the core of what you argue in this book. Back in the day, way back in the day, when the religions of the world, when these faith traditions were commencing, were beginning, there were a number of them, you talk about four specifically in this text. But when they started, they all had the same essentially message.

The same essential theme, which is essentially the Golden Rule. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. That's how the text starts. But somewhere along the way, obviously, something went wrong. Something happened, and now we have all these disparate religions. People killing each other over their beliefs, etcetera, etcetera. My opening question, what happened?

Armstrong: Well, of course, compassion is not really a very popular virtue. Sometimes, when I'm lecturing to people about compassion, I can see them looking rather (soundslike) balked and mutinous. Because often, religious people prefer to be right rather than compassionate. And there is, what the axial, this is a period called the axial age.

It's the age when people, such as the Buddha, Confucius, the great prophets of Israel, Socrates, were all alive in the world, bringing a new kind of thinking into being. And they wanted to create a different kind of human being. They wanted to create a human being that was compassionate, that was able to feel with others.

And by acting according to the Golden Rule, they said the person would come into contact with what's called God or Brahman, or the Dao, and his or her humanity would be increased and enhanced. They'd become more humane. Now, a lot of religious people don't want to be transformed radically. They want to use God, for example, to endorse their own opinions, or to make, instead of losing their egotism and their greed and their selfishness, they want God to make them moreso.

Now a lot of them are; there's a tendency in religious thought to be very dogmatic. To say my god is not your god, or I'm right, you're wrong. Now the Daoist sages in this period that I'm writing about thought that to expect the kind of certainty that people often want from religion is immature and unrealistic.

That these opinions that we spout are really an expression of egotism. So, basically what went wrong is human nature. Human nature, which prefers to endorse itself, to get a seal of sacred approval for its actions, rather than giving that self up in an act of self-emptying. And the act of compassion, where you have to dethrone yourself from the center of your world, and put another person there.

Tavis: Speaking of ego, how, since we are in this religious season, Easter and Passover, how much of our traditions, what percentage of our religious traditions would you say are manmade, man-inspired, man-ordained, man-enforced, rather than inspired by the almighty?

Armstrong: Oh, well, the traditions vary about this. In the east, in Buddhism or Confucianism, Daoism, indeed, you're expected to make your religion. That human beings, by their hard work, by their compassionate lifestyle, by their constant attempts to meditate or concentrate, can bring about their own enlightenment.

Tavis: So you chart your own path to righteousness.

Armstrong: It is manmade. They would say that, the Buddha would say that any human being can craft his or her own enlightenment by their own efforts. They don't have the idea of a revelatory god, revealing itself to the world. In the monotheistic traditions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, God is seen as the initiator.

But even so, even there, during this period and afterwards, Jewish, Christian, and Muslim theologians have often developed theological notions that are very close to the Buddhist or to the Hindus, and have experienced the divine absolutely within themselves. And the emphasis, too, is on you have to create your own theophany, some of them would say, by an effort of imagination, and by an effort of compassion.

Tavis: To that point, and I don't mean to cast aspersion on any particular faith, but I'm curious about this. If man is as flawed as he is, and I say man in the human sense, male, female. If we, as humans, are as flawed as we are, if we are, how might I put this? The cracked vessels that we are, how does anything, any belief qualify as a faith tradition as a religion if you have to rely on yourself to find the path to righteousness, rather than a higher power, whatever that might be?

Armstrong: Because you have to do it. The religions offered a methodology. People like the Buddha said that he's not offering a truth system. He's offering a method. And if you follow the method, your humanity will be improved. That you will be able to live with pain and suffering, but you'll have to make a real concerted effort not to speak violently about others.

You have to make a concerted effort not to look impatient with people, not to say unpleasant things about other human beings we wouldn't like said about our own. And if you do that, as Confucius said, all day and every day, you will discover that the flaws in your humanity become less. And you, but it's a long, slow period. And we're not used to that in our world.

We want instant enlightenment, and we expect information and knowledge at the click of a mouse. Whereas the religious path takes a long time. But nobody has the complete answer. The Chinese sages were all convinced that nobody has the monopoly of truth. That each religious tradition has its peculiar genius, and each has its own special flaws, too.

Tavis: I'm not personally, never have been particularly fond of the word religion, 'cause I think the experience has to be deeper than that. I know what you're getting to with this title, 'The Beginning of Our Religious Traditions.' I've never been fond of the word religion, personally. As again, I think it's gotta be deeper than just a religion.

That said, though, since you've used these words a number of times now, by my count, humanity and compassion, is it your sense as a scholar here, that the essence of religion, the essence of spirituality, the essence of our faith, is ultimately about humanity and compassion?

Armstrong: Yes. And indeed, you have that in the gospels and in the 'New Testament,' too. I can have faith that moves mountains, says St. Paul, but if I lack charity, it's worth nothing. That this is the bedrock founding discovery of this period, of the Buddha, of Confucius. Confucius was perhaps the first person to make it crystal clear that religion was compassion. It was the Golden Rule.

And that, and he called his supreme reality, not God. You weren't going to Heaven or to a person. It was The Way, the Dao. The actual way, the path of living in a compassion way was an end in itself. You became almost a godlike human being yourself.

Tavis: Whatever it is that one believes in this particular season or beyond, for that matter, have we screwed up this experiment so badly that we can't get back, as humans, on any right path, whatever that might be?

Armstrong: We, human beings, do screw up. We do, and...

Tavis: I'm a witness. As we say in the Black church, I'm a witness. Go ahead.

Armstrong: (Laugh) We get a good thing, and we are geniuses at ruining them. And religion is very difficult to do well. It's like art or cooking. There's bad art, bad cooking. And there...

Tavis: Let me jump in right quick, though. Why should it be difficult to do well?

Armstrong: Because we don't want to give up our egotisms. We don't want to let ourselves go, as we've said earlier. The people want to feel enhanced. They want religion to give them a little mild uplift once a week. And they also use religion, just as people exploit sex, which is supposed to be an act of creativity and generosity, love.

And it's used perversely and cruelly and exploitatively. People have done that with religion, too. Using God, a figure they've created in their own image and likeness, to give a sacred seal of absolute approval to some of their worst projects. But the essence of religion is crystal clear in all the traditions, and it's simple.

I was with the Dalai Lama earlier in September, and he said, my religion is kindness. And all the religions teach the same. All we have to do is go back to the Golden Rule. We don't need to wait for another prophet or another sage or a Buddha. The answer is there, in our traditions. We just have to delve underneath the rubble. Some of it bad rubble that's accumulated.

Tavis: Indeed. I've got less than a minute to go. Let me ask you right quick, which is an unfair question to ask in 45 seconds, what did you most learn being a nun during the period you were?

Armstrong: I learned about myself. About my own inadequacies. I learned about failure, which is quite a valuable lesson to learn when you're very young. And I also had one or two nuns who were quite inspiring to me, and have remained icons of what a compassionate, kind human being can be. A carrier of the divine. And there were one or two women who were my superiors, and who I lived with who've remained for me an inspiration.

Tavis: Well, you are an inspiration for many. Certainly, you get us to think. The new book by Karen Armstrong, a religious scholar, is "The Great Transformation, The Beginning of Our Religious Traditions.' Not bad reading, particularly during this season of the year. Karen Armstrong, an honor to have you on the program.

Armstrong: Thank you very much, Tavis.

Tavis: Nice to see you.

Armstrong: Thank you.

Tavis: That's our show for tonight. You can catch me on the weekends on PRI, Public Radio International. Check your local listings. See you back here next time on PBS. Until then, good night from Los Angeles. Thanks for watching, and as always, keep the faith.