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Tavis: I am pleased to welcome Senator Bill Frist back to this program. The Tennessee Republican is, of course, the top man in the U.S. Senate, having served as majority leader since December of 2002. This week, he has the unenviable task of building some kind of consensus on the Hill surrounding immigration reform. He joins us tonight from the Hill. Senator, as always, nice to have you on this program, sir.

Sen. Bill Frist: Tavis, great to be with you again, thank you.

Tavis: Let me start with a quote from the President earlier today. The President said, and I quote, my judgment is that you cannot enforce the border without having a temporary guest worker program. The two go hand in hand, close quote. To that you say?

Frist: Well, Tavis, where we failed in the past, and where we have to take action first, it doesn't mean you can't take it at the same time, but it's on our, our borders. A sovereign nation has to be able to control its borders. And when you have over a million people arrested along our southwest borders last year, but two and a half million people coming across illegally last year, something is wrong. And we've got to start there.

Tavis: Let me ask, to the point I made a moment ago, how it is that you build a consensus in your party when you have one view, respectfully, the President has another view. And this is one of those issues where Republicans disagree with each other. How does one build consensus for, never mind on Capitol Hill, within your own party, first of all.

Frist: Tavis, that's the challenge. I've got about a week and a half on the floor of the Senate, which is, is known for its deliberations, although sometimes people laugh when you say that. (Laugh) And over the next week and a half, to address the issues that we just mentioned. Border security, I think first and foremost.

Second, to look at interior enforcement, both along the border, but also interior, where people are actually being hired illegally. And then thirdly, we will be addressing the whole issue of a temporary worker program. It's rare that I take something to the floor of this Senate that I can't predict what the outcome will be.

What I do know is that it is not a Democrat issue, it's not a Republican issue, it's not a, a conservative or liberal or a red state-blue state issue. So we're gonna really see how well the United States Senate, 100 individuals representing everybody in this country, can deliberate on a tough issue that centers around a balance between we're a nation of law, first and foremost, and also a nation of proud immigrants. Legal immigrants.

Tavis: You said something fascinating just a moment ago that I wanna come back to, where you suggested that it's rare that as the majority leader, you'll take anything to the floor where you can't predict the outcome. That seems to be contrary to good advice, to the way things ought to be done when you're trying to pass legislation.

Why, then, would you take this particular hotbed issue to the floor when you admittedly don't know how it's going to come out, and how you're gonna herd these Republicans together?

Frist: Yeah, and first of all, it's not just hurting Republicans. This issue recognizes that, as I just said, we have two and a half million people who cross that southwestern border illegally, in addition to a million people who are caught every, every year. That problem is getting worse. It increased by 25 percent just over the last 12 months, and it's getting worse and worse.

So it's a national security issue. We have no earthly idea who these people are, why they're coming, what their names are, or what their intentions are. And in a post-9/11 world, where we have to worry about our security, I think first and foremost, we have to address it. It's our responsibility. You can't hide from that particular issue.

And then we have 11 million people in this country who broke the law. Bottom line, broke the law. And I know the importance of those people who come here to capture the American dream, to work hard, to be productive, many of them. But still, they broke the law, and we have to address those 11 million people who are here, because they're increasing day by day, as well.

Tavis: You mentioned a moment ago that some people laugh when you use the word deliberation with regard to the U.S. Senate. Some people, respectfully, Senator Frist, laugh when they hear you suggest that it's a security issue to deal with this border problem of persons coming into the United States, particularly against the backdrop that we know that the only persons who ever entered our borders who were terrorists came through Canada, not from Mexico.

Frist: Well, it's not just a Mexican problem. And in fact, it's probably not a Mexican problem. What has happened over the last years, at what are called the OTMs, the other than Mexicans, increased last year in Texas by 77 percent coming across the border. And they're from all over the world. We don't know where they're really from, but we know Honduras, El Salvador, from China, from the Middle East, from all over the world.

That increased by 77 percent over the Texas border. The entire southwest border it increased by 66 percent. So we're talking about tens of thousands of people coming across illegally from other OTMs, other than Mexico, the largest group. And that's the whole point. Our borders are too porous. Once you get into this country, other than the Mexicans, they're sent back immediately. Others, with 90 percent success rate, stay in this country permanently.

Tavis: For the sake of argument, let me underscore that line. For the sake of argument between the two of us for the moment, if I were to admit to you that immigration, illegal immigration, is a legitimate issue and one that all American citizens have to be concerned about how we're going to deal with, now, we gotta find a solution, as you mentioned earlier.

But if I concede to you that illegal immigration is an issue, would you concede to me that the reason why the Republicans have raised this as an issue at this moment is because you know that it is one of those hotbed issues that plays to your Republican base? It's a way to distract America from other conversations. And you guys know, to your base, you can win on this in the midterm elections of '06.

Frist: Listen, first of all, this is not a political, as I've said three times, this is not a Democrat or Republican issue. And Tavis, I honestly, honestly am saying that. And we'll see whether or not I'm right. But I can tell you, more people, instead of saying what you did, is that this particular issue fractures the Republican Party.

Because there's so many divergent views. I don't even really buy that, because I think it does the same thing to a Democrat, a Republican, an Independent. Because we're talking about this balance that has to be achieved, that has not been achieved in the past, of being a nation, a rule of law, but also a nation which values immigrants.

And I can, I think most political advice would be, stay away from this issue and don't try to address it today, and kind of let it work its way out. Because it is not necessarily playing to either the Democrat base or the Republican base. And I honestly feel that.

Tavis: All right, fair enough. Let me ask you, then, what you think the outcome will be here? And I understand you said earlier, you can't predict the outcome. I'm talking specifically now about how the legislation gets passed. What is this legislation going to say, ultimately?

Frist: Yeah, it's a good question, and just for your viewers, earlier today, I took my bill to the floor of the Senate. My bill focuses on border security; it's called Securing America's Borders. And that's because that is the fundamental problem. You can pass all the laws in the world, but if you have porous borders and people flocking to this country, you're not going to be able to address the fundamental problem.

What will happen on the floor is sometime tomorrow, the Specter bill that came out of the judiciary committee, that many people say, and I don't wanna characterize it, but I tend to or I wouldn't mention it, as an amnesty bill, is gonna come as the first amendment tomorrow. And we'll let the will of the Senate speak on that amendment over the next several days.

I think we'll see some pulling back by a lot of people to say, we don't want to go as far as amnesty. But that'll be the debate among both Democrats and Republicans on the floor of the Senate for the next probably eight or nine days.

Tavis: You personally oppose that?

Frist: I'm absolutely opposed to amnesty. Absolutely opposed to amnesty. I don't think, amnesty, by definition, says you are rewarding illegal behavior. And we're this nation of the rule of law. And so, you can't come in and reward illegal behavior. Now...

Tavis: But for the persons who are already here, Senator, those 11 million or so, the numbers keep moving around. But the last number I read, about 11 million, the best estimate, what do you do with those persons already here?

Frist: Now, that's gonna be the hardest problem. I think we can address the issue with green cards and visas, tighten up our borders, first and foremost. Address employer verification and internal enforcement of the laws of the land. The real challenge, and most of the debate will be around the 11 million people who, by definition, are illegal, broke the law to be here, yet at the same time are, many of them, seven and a half million, are working, are productive in our economy today.

When you look at the field of whether it's agriculture or hospitality or the construction industry. In large part, our economy has depended on them. And that will be the debate. I don't think you can basically reward them for that illegal behavior. You need to recognize their value today. Proposals such as the current bill says, stay here, and even you can get a leg up on citizenship.

I disagree with that, 'cause it's rewarding that behavior. Consideration might be to let them stay for three years or six years or seven years, but at the end of that time, go back and get in line if you want citizenship there.

Tavis: Got a few seconds left here. I know you so well, since we've talked so many times over the years. I'm always honored to talk to you. I can predict the answer to this question, but I'm gonna ask it anyway, 'cause I gotta do my job. You came in first in that straw poll in Tennessee, the first and only straw poll amongst Republicans who might be considering a run in '08. How does this debate and how you manage this debate impact a potential Frisk candidacy in '08?

Frist: Tavis, a lot of people have started talking, because people are already looking to 2008. And I think that, well...

Tavis: But you did come in first in the poll, though, Senator.

Frist: Yeah, oh, I know it. Those straw polls, now, I say that they're not very important, but then when you win one, you say boy, that was important. (Laugh) In truth, just earlier today, we finished a very important lobbying reform bill when everybody hates Congress today, and thinks they're all unethical. Very important bill.

It was hard to pass; we got it through in a bipartisan way. And now we're gonna address a debate which means something to everybody listening today. And that really is honestly where my focus is. To try to do this in a dignified, civil way that is fair both to our immigrants, encourages legal immigration, but at the same time, recognizes we're a nation of the rule of law.

Tavis: It's a good answer, and I was right. I could have predicted that answer. In 10 seconds, can you tell me whether or not the replacing of Andy Card means something or doesn't mean something, since he was replaced by an insider?

Frist: I think that it does. I think it is more of an evolution than a revolution, as a lot of people have been saying. But I think you're gonna say some, I'm guessing, some expansion of the number of people who have direct input to this President over the next several weeks and months.

Tavis: He is, of course, the Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist out of Tennessee, Republican. Mr. Frist, as always Mr. Leader, nice to have you on the program.

Frist: Great to be with you, Tavis, thank you.

Tavis: Up next on this program, best-selling author and clinical psychologist Henry Cloud on the subject of integrity. Stay with us.