E-mail a friendMax Cleland
airdate November 10, 2009
Max Cleland has served his country for more than 40 years. Currently Secretary of the American Battle Monuments Commission, the Atlanta native served as Georgia's U.S. senator, secretary of state and in the state senate. He was also the youngest ever—and first Vietnam vet—to helm the VA, where he instituted the Vets Center program. Before turning to politics, Cleland volunteered for service in the Army and lost both legs and an arm in a grenade explosion near Khe Sanh. He's written several books, including Heart of a Patriot.
Decorated Army vet and former U.S. senator weighs in on the Fort Hood attack. (1:35)
Full Interview (12:18)
Max Cleland
Tavis: As we get set to honor America's war veterans tomorrow, I'm pleased and honored to welcome to this program Max Cleland. The former U.S. senator and decorated Vietnam vet lost both of his legs and one arm while serving his country in Vietnam. His story has been the inspiration for so many Americans, and is the subject of his new memoir, "Heart of a Patriot." He joins us tonight from New York. Senator Cleland, always an honor to have you on this program, sir.
Max Cleland: Thank you, Tavis, nice to be here.
Tavis: I saw your piece a few days ago in "The New York Times," your op-ed piece about the lasting effects that war has on the mind and the soul of soldiers. We know earlier today President Obama and the First Lady, Michelle Obama, went to Fort Hood. Your thoughts about what happened at Fort Hood, now days removed?
Cleland: Well, first of all the president should go to Fort Hood. These are his troops. These are our troops. They were killed by a man who went off the edge. It was a terrorist act. Whether the individual is a terrorist or not we don't know, but it was a terrorist act, it created terror. It was obvious that there was something going on in the man's mind that comported with what was happening in his life and then that triggered him.
He was going to war. In his own mind, I think for a while he had not wanted to go to war against his compatriots in many ways, so he took out as much of America and the American war machine, in his mind, as he could. The problem is he killed innocent people, as terrorists do. It was indiscriminate.
So I'm proud the president went down to Fort Hood and I appreciate him going. These are his troops that were killed and wounded, and they are America's troops. We love them and we appreciate them and their sacrifice and we pray for their families.
Tavis: So how ought we, then, as Americans, given your brilliant explanation of what you think happened in his mind and how that comported with his life, how as Americans should we view this killer? Should we view him as one who was troubled representing others who may be troubled and in need of our help, or do we write him off as a crazy man who went insane and damn his name to perdition?
Cleland: Well, he wasn't a crazy man, but I think he went off in his mind. He couldn't reconcile what was going on in his mind, the war in his mind, which he saw increasingly as a clash of civilizations, as the book puts it, between America and Islam, in his mind.
He forgot the fact that Al Qaeda came against us and killed 3,000 innocent people whose only job was to go to work that day. That was their only criminality. So innocent people died by the thousands in America - that's why we have to focus on Al Qaeda, killing and capturing them wherever they are. But in his mind, it was a war of America against Islam. That is not true, but he was going to be involved in that fight and he went off and he decided that he would become, in effect, a suicide shooter and take as many people with him as he could.
That is murderous, that is terroristic, and that makes him a murderer, and that makes those heroes that he killed and wounded our responsibility. They're the ones I'm concerned about.
Tavis: You referenced at the very top of this conversation the fact that the president should, in fact, have gone to Fort Hood today because these are his soldiers. We sit here now expecting that at some point in the not-too-distant future this president is going to send more of his soldiers - how many, we don't know.
We expect, though, that he may very well send more of his soldiers to Afghanistan. Many of them may come back with the same kinds of mental anguish, much of the mental anguish that this killer had. So that said, what ought the president do about sending troops to Afghanistan, Senator?
Cleland: Well, first of all, the president is withdrawing our combat forces from Iraq, thank God, which has taken us off the mission of killing or capturing Al Qaeda, which is not necessarily in Afghanistan but is in Pakistan. Al Qaeda central is in Pakistan. Taliban central is in Pakistan. The nuclear weapons are in Pakistan, held by the Pakistani government. Bin Laden, as we are told, is in Pakistan.
So the issue for me is that the American forces, however many there are of them, should be forced - not forced, but should train the forces in Afghanistan and we should have an exit strategy there and concentrate on killing or capturing Al Qaeda. My view is you focus on the alligators in the swamp rather than draining the swamp, and that's the only way out of this dilemma.
Tavis: Your book, the subtitle really does lay out - great subtitle, because it really does lay out what the book is all about. Given that I have a limited amount of time with you, let me just take the subtitle as it's laid out and get your thoughts on these things, and the readers, of course, of this book will get more into it when they get the book itself.
But when you say, "How I Found the Courage to Survive Vietnam, Walter Reed, and Karl Rove," let me take them in that order. We know, of course, the limbs that you lost and the sacrifice you made to the country, but when you say how you found the courage to survive Vietnam, what do you mean by that?
Cleland: Well, survive the fact that everything I gave and all that those of us who served there gave seems to become increasingly meaningless with time, and we don't need any more meaningless wars. We don't need to create another Iraq, for instance, that will create a powerful loss of meaning among those who serve there. We withdrew not only from Vietnam but from Iraq as well.
Now, we should learn something here in terms of Afghanistan and Pakistan. We should keep our eye focused on our goal, on our objective, which is killing or capturing Al Qaeda. That is why I'm so insistent upon that. That does not necessarily translate or mean that we need necessarily massive numbers of troops on the ground.
The troops on the ground should have a specific mission. It's what they do rather than the number involved, and what they should do in Afghanistan is train the Afghans to take care of themselves. What we should do in terms of working with the Pakistanis is kill or capture Al Qaeda. That is exactly what we should be about. That is my own opinion of the situation.
Tavis: When you say that you survived Walter Reed, explain that for me.
Cleland: Well, I was just over at Walter Reed last week. (Laughter)
Tavis: Yeah, and what do they think of that subtitle, that you survived Walter Reed?
Cleland: Well, yeah, there were several that came up and identified with that part of the book, that how did you survive Walter Reed? Walter Reed becomes another battleground. It's a great battleground in the sense that there are wonderful people there who are trained to help you out and help you get on with your life, overcome whatever has happened to you mentally or physically and get on with your life. I love Walter Reed.
I wound up back there after my loss in 2002 because I had massive depression and PTSD, which I've learned that I now carry. So these young soldiers have that and other injuries, and Walter Reed's a wonderful place. But surviving in that environment sometimes is very difficult.
One of the Iraq soldiers, not last week but one told me about a year ago the toughest thing he ever did was to come home. So sometimes, home can be a different kind of battlefield.
Tavis: When you said you carried PTSD, you should explain what that acronym means.
Cleland: Well, post-traumatic stress disorder. I call it post-war disorder or that you bring the war home with you. People who have been to war understand that. This is not new. We've labeled it something but - and it's kind of scary, but it's that you bring your experience home.
Tennyson, the great poet, said, "I am a part of all that I have met." Yeah - you meet war, you bring it with you and it stays part of you. You can overcome it, you can deal with it, but sometimes you need a little help to do that. I realized that I needed some help from the people at Walter Reed and some of my friends to deal with it.
Tavis: You were very courageous to talk about having lost your U.S. Senate race, falling into a deep depression. You end up back at Walter Reed. Was it the loss that brought on the depression, or what do you think now in retrospect had you go back to Walter Reed to get help?
Cleland: It was the loss of everything that I had used to cope with the injuries coming back from Vietnam. I had used public service and that outlet - that staff, that income, that status, if you will - to cope with those injuries for 30 years. Then when I lost in 2002 what happened was, looking back, I lost everything that I had built up, everything that I had used to cope, and so I lost my ability to cope and I went down into a massive, deep, dark depression and I was laying on the battlefield again, bleeding and dying.
That was totally fearful. So I wound up back at Walter Reed, realizing that the original experience of being wounded is something I never quite got over. It's something I'll carry. I can deal with it, and other soldiers can deal with this stuff, but sometimes you need a helping hand to do that.
I got great help at Walter Reed through trauma counseling. When I was head of the VA 30-some-odd years ago I set up the Vet Center program, dealing with the emotional aftermath of the war, and that is what a young person should go to - a vet's center or a 12-step group or something, and use the G.I. bill when you come home. That's exactly the formula.
Tavis: Finally, to this subtitle, which again I'm just scratching the surface here on what this book really is in depth, but when you said you survived Karl Rove, not everybody has. What do you mean by that?
Cleland: Well, Rove, in my opinion, drove American politics off the charts because - negatively - because he went after people and not only sought to destroy their character but sought to destroy their courage, their sense of service in the American military - McCain, me, and Kerry.
Rove, in my instance, personally picked the opponent to run against me, someone who has not served in the American military, and then they ran that ad against me, the Republicans did, in 2002, of putting my face up there with Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden, as if I couldn't defend the country.
Military service should stand on its own. If you have it, you have it. If you don't have it, you don't have it. The voters will know that. Politics can be politics, but your military service should stand on its own.
Tavis: Max Cleland is an authentic American hero and I'm always honored to talk to him on radio or television.
Cleland: Thank you.
Tavis: His new book is called "Heart of a Patriot: How I Found the Courage to Survive Vietnam, Walter Reed, and Karl Rove." I couldn't do justice to it in this short conversation, but you ought to get this book - it's a good read. Senator, always delighted to have you on. Thanks for your time, sir.
Cleland: Thank you, my friend.
Tavis: Appreciate you.
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