E-mail a friendThe RZA
airdate October 22, 2009
The RZA has been in the rap game in several incarnations and has influenced the genre for many years. The music producer is a founding member of the hip-hop group Wu-Tang Clan and known for having multiple aliases, one of which is Bobby Digital—an alter-ego he's used for recording and releasing solo efforts. He's also a BAFTA-nominated film composer, whose credits include the two-volume Kill Bill films and Barbershop II. The RZA has written two books, including The Tao of Wu, described as a "spiritual memoir."
Wu-Tang Clan founder tells the story of how he got his name. (1:47)
Full Interview (9:22)
The RZA
Tavis: Pleased to welcome The RZA back to this program. As a founding member of the Wu-Tang Clan, he has established himself as one of the most creative and influential players in all of hip-hop. He's out this fall with a critically-acclaimed memoir called The Tao of Wu. Of the book, our friend, Dr. Cornel West, says RZA is a towering artist and a deep thinker who has much to teach us. Just some of the high praise for this project. RZA, good to have you on the program.
The RZA: Thanks, Tavis. Good to be here.
Tavis: You holding on?
The RZA: I'm holding on.
Tavis: Let me start this conversation for those who don't know the powerful impact, the depth of the impact, that the Wu-Tang Clan has had on hip-hop. Let me start with some terminology. So when we say Wu-Tang, by that in Chinese, we mean what?
The RZA: Wu-Tang in Chinese actually means he who is deserving of God, or man who deserves God. When I first thought of Wu-Tang, I didn't know that, of course. I learned that. But it was more of a sword style of martial art and, being that hip-hop is such a lyrical form and Wu-Tang was the best sword style, we applied to that name to our crew, saying that we are the best lyricists. But I went on a pilgrimage in about 1999 and I learned the true meaning of the word and Wu-Tang means man who's deserving of God.
Tavis: What do you make of coming up with this idea to call your group the Wu-Tang Clan and then finding out later that it means something as powerful as man who is deserving of God?
The RZA: Well, I mean, it was a blessing because sometimes things come to us. You get a call or you get something in your life and you don't find the true meaning until later on, but it leads you to a path. It led me to a path just watching the Kung-Fu flick and just taking this as a hip-hop thing and then finding this path, you know, of enlightenment, shall I say. It was a blessing really, more than anything.
Tavis: Before I move on to another term I want to define here, what do you think now in retrospect this impact that I referenced a moment ago that you all have had on hip-hop, what do you think that legacy is? What do you think that impact was?
The RZA: I think Wu-Tang brought together a lot of different cultures into hip-hop. By us infusing the Asian culture with our own selves and taking the comic book culture, of course, the New York hip-hop scene and all that, and infusing all these different things, I think it caused the hip-hop audience to grow.
When people go back and they reflect on our lyrics, people always say our lyrics are incredible. Some guy said, "I went to college and I was stuck and your lyrics helped me get through college" and things like that. So I think that we not only help people as far as grooving and dancing from the hip-hop vibes, but we put them on an intellectual path as well.
When you go to a Wu-Tang concert, at first it started out being a lot of young Black men coming and jumping up and bringing a ruckus. But within five years, I started seeing audiences with Black, brown, red, yellow, you know, Native American. Everybody under one roof, all loving hip-hop, all loving music and that Wu-Tang sign in the air. I was like, wow. I realized that it was bigger than us.
Tavis: We all heard the news a couple of years, of course, - I guess a couple of years when ODB - seems like a couple of years ago, but probably longer than that now.
The RZA: Yeah.
Tavis: When he passed away, obviously one of your partners, one of your friends, I was fascinated to read that just before he passed away, the last thing he said to you, the last thing he uttered to you, were the words, "I don't understand." That obviously impacted you because you've written about it. What did you take that to mean when he said, "I don't understand."? What was he talking about?
The RZA: He literally didn't understand the meaning of his life, the meaning of everything we stood for. He had lost understanding to it and I understood why he lost it, but I couldn't accept him saying that to me because I grew up with him. He was actually a scientist. The dude was smart; prophetic were some of his words.
His name was Ason Unique, which means a son that's unique, and he was a unique individual. But when he became Ol' Dirty Bastard, the name kind of engulfed him and he became that particular being itself and that is a being that won't understand. I was finally like, you know, trying to reason with him and logic with him.
You know, listen, you got to understand what you don't understand. You don't understand your inner being; you don't understand that God is working through you. No, I don't understand. You don't understand that Wu-Tang is more important than us, that sometimes our message is spreading and is helping people. No, I don't understand, I don't understand. No, I don't want to go not understanding, you know what I mean?
Tavis: I hear your point. The Song of Solomon in the bible, you know, of course, as in all thy getting, get an understanding. So whatever you get, you got to at least get an understanding, so I feel you on that tip.
But I also want to go back very quickly to your powerful point about him taking the stage name ODB, Ol' Dirty Bastard, and you said that, unfortunately in some respects, he took on everything that he called down in what he named himself. Tell me why you named yourself RZA, what your given name is, why you changed? Tell me about your stage name.
The RZA: I was born with the name Robert F. Diggs.
Tavis: Robert F. Diggs.
The RZA: Yeah. My mother was a big fan of Bobby Kennedy and John F. Kennedy and she picked the two names -
Tavis: - the two together, Robert F. Diggs. Okay.
The RZA: And, of course, growing up in the hood, you know, we was walking around saying those are the slave names. As a kid, I was against my own name and I chose the name [unintelligible] which means to be original. I lived with that name for a while and then I kind of went negative again and started living the savage life, I would say, so I zigzagged.
So going like this, this, this, I made the name RZA because it means [unintelligible] zigzag zigallah. It means I went this way, went the wrong way, but then found the right path and continued on. I use Allah as a proper name for God because, within that Allah, I get the arm, leg, head and I can use that, you know. It seems more appropriate for myself. So that's my name, The RZA.
But as I grew into manhood and started, you know, really taking my studies seriously, I realized in the bible it says, "Honor thy mother and thy father." So therefore I stopped calling the name my mother gave me a slave name because she named me after two great men in America who fought for change, died for change. So I call it my honorable name and I researched the name Robert. It's actually a name of royalty. I think somebody said yesterday actually it means shining fame, so she was on the right path already.
Tavis: That other term I want to get to, of course, is the title of the book, The Tao of Wu. You called this book that why?
The RZA: The Tao means way or path and, in this book, I'm describing a path I traveled through and a path that some of my brothers traveled through. I would say it was almost a path through hell, you know. Living in Brownsville, New York, Brooklyn, you know, I mean with not only the violence and the tumult outside, but also inside, the poverty. My mom's a welfare mother, so five dollars was rare. You know what I mean? The days you ask you mother, "You got .25?" and the answer be, "Boy, I don't got good sense." (Laughter)
Tavis: (Laughter) Let alone .25.
The RZA: Yeah, exactly. Yet in that struggle and this pain that I've gone through, there's been a moral always on the line. There's always been a principle. I look at the Book of Job and we see Job was a man who was tested of his faith, took everything from sores all over his body, but he still had to uphold his faith.
In The Tao of Wu, I use different stories of my life or stories of great prophets and look for a meaning that we can apply to ourselves. Now this book, I think anybody could enjoy it, but especially who's coming from the same predicament I started from because most of us are statistically supposed to be dead or in jail by 25.
Tavis: That's right.
The RZA: And even making it, I hate to bring this up because, you know, they're not my family, but they're my hip-hop family. Look at Biggie and Tupac. They made it and still didn't make it past 25.
Tavis: Exactly.
The RZA: So I think if a young man would obtain wisdom like Solomon say, "I saw wisdom from the cradle to the grave." Even though God say, "Hey, Solomon, what do you want? You want riches? You want women? You want power?" He say, "I don't want none of that. Give me wisdom." With wisdom, he gained it all and that's what I advise to our young people nowadays.
Tavis: He advises in his new text. It's called The Tao of Wu written by the one, the only, The RZA. Always glad to have you on this program.
The RZA: Thank you, Tavis. Thank you very much.
Tavis: Good to see you. It's my pleasure.
Back to October 22, 2009