E-mail a friendGeorge Carlin
airdate June 23, 2008
George Carlin made audiences laugh for more than five decades with his take-no-prisoners comedy style. He recorded more than 15 albums, won several Grammys and wrote several best-selling collections of his observations of the absurdities of everyday life and language. He was also a television vet, including being the first host of Saturday Night Live and star of more than a dozen HBO specials. The New York native was also known to do serious acting and appeared in several films, including, Jersey Girl.
The late comedian, George Carlin, discusses freedom of choice and social hysteria. (4:00)
Full Interview. (21:50)
George Carlin
Tavis: In April of 2004 I sat down with George Carlin for a wide-ranging conversation that touched on everything from the current state of comedy to the war on terror and his willingness to tackle the issue of race. But we began by talking about his most famous routine: the seven words you can never say on television.
More than 30 years ago, that routine sparked a national controversy that ended up as a case before the U.S. Supreme Court.
(Clip)
Tavis: It's been, what, 30 years now.
George Carlin: Since what?
Tavis: Since you did those seven words -
Carlin: Yeah, did the-
Tavis: - that you can't say on television or radio.
Carlin: Right, seven words you can never say on television. The word
"never" in that title was the key to me. There were words that you could say depending on what you meant by them. You could talk about a female dog. You could talk about a person whose parents weren't married. You could use those words.
You could say - for instance, you could prick your finger; that was fine. Don't finger your prick. (Laughter) But you can prick your finger. So there were these words that went both ways, and I wasn't interested in them. I said, "Let's isolate the ones you can never say."
Tavis: Never say.
Carlin: That was the principle of that piece, yeah.
Tavis: What do you make of what the FCC is doing now and the furor that erupted after Janet Jackson - or Ms. Jackson, if you're nasty -
Carlin: Yeah. (Laughter)
Tavis: What do you make of that furor 30 years after you talked about what you couldn't say? Now it's not just what we're saying - we're saying it, we're doing it; the FCC's going crazy. What do you make of all this?
Carlin: Well, the whole - you know, there's just a hundred ways you can approach this subject to talk about it.
Tavis: Let's take 50 of them.
Carlin: Okay, and let me start one out to begin with. For one thing, this thing has never left. This thing has never gone away. And my case was one where the FCC sanctioned a radio station - it wasn't a public station, but it was a listener-supported station; no commercials - they sanctioned them for playing my album with all seven words.
They warned people what was coming, but they played it, and they were sanctioned. One complaint came in - one complaint - came in, and they were - by a professional moralist, may I say. A guy who drove around listening to the radio for that reason, I think. But they refused to pay the sanction. They refused the $100 fine.
They refused to get a bad mark on their record for license renewal, so they went to court and they won it. In district court a three-man judge and a three-man - three-panel court - a three-judge panel. I knew I'd get it. (Laughter) It was in there somewhere.
Tavis: It was coming.
Carlin: But a three-judge - two to one they won that in District Court, and then it went to the Supreme Court. FCC said, "Well, we're going to fight this to the Supreme Court." Five to four, Supreme Court said, "These words are indecent." And this was a new category of filth I had created - I didn't know. And I was impassive. I was just a spectator to all of this.
So it happened 30 years ago, but this has gone on in our culture since the 1800s, since the great reawakening. All these - throwing out the girls from the strip houses. It's just recurring because it is - it considers itself a Christian nation and has a puritanical streak, and this will continue to happen.
The interesting thing about this country is they talk about how we have freedom of choice - we have freedom of choice. Yeah. Very limited. If it's an important thing, limited choice. Two political parties, essentially - two. Big media companies, five, six?
Tavis: Mm-hmm, max.
Carlin: Yeah. Oil companies, down to three now, I think, overall - three or four. Banks, the big banks, the big brokerage houses, the big accounting firms - all the things that are important, reduced in choice. Newspapers in the city - how many? Used to be three, four; now it's one or two. They're owned by the same people and they also own a radio station and the TV station. (Laughter)
But jellybeans? Thirty-two flavors. (Laughter) Ice cream - all the things that don't matter, the unimportant things, a lot of choices. You know what I say? You know what your freedom of choice is in America? Paper or plastic. (Laughter) That's it, man. It comes down to paper or plastic, cash or charge, aisle or window, smoking or nonsmoking, Coke or Pepsi.
These are your choices. Everything else is kind of laid out for you. You get to do what they really want. They do what they want. The ones who own this country, they do what they want to do.
Tavis: Speaking of our choices being usurped or taken away from us, what do you make of - and I'm fascinated to ask you this because all the things that you've been talking about for years are - we've come full circle on this stuff. That's why I was so fascinated - thank you for coming on the program - but here we are now, 30 years after you were talking about it, with this huge debate, this huge fight about whether or not our civil liberties are being taken away from us. What are your thoughts on -
Carlin: Well, I think if you looked at the record of laws which have been passed in the last 30 to 40 years - there's a thing called social hysteria. Social hysteria is whipped up, generally, by the media. Crime - in Nixon's time, crime was the big social hysteria issue. There's too much crime. They're coddling, the courts are coddling the criminals. We have to have tougher laws.
So a lot of civil liberties went away in terms of the rights of criminals and the rights of the accused and people going on trial. These were limited; they were cut down, these rights which are guaranteed by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
Another social hysteria - drugs. The drug thing happened, same thing. Big flow of drugs, we're gonna fight the drugs, we need newer, tougher laws, we need draconian sentences, we need to be able to go into houses. We need to be able to do this if we have reasonable - you know.
All of these shortcuts have resulted in less liberties because of social hysteria. The media whips up the frenzy, people get all excited, the legislature passes it, the president - the executive signs it, and the judges then - the judicial branch okays it sometime later when it gets to them. And what has happened is you have less freedom, less liberties, less civil liberties, less rights.
And the third social hysteria is terrorism. That was whipped up; now, there's probably a little more cause there. You look at 9/11; it's a very dramatic event. But that, too, has been used, with this Patriot Act, to reduce our liberties. They say, "Well, if you got nothing to hide, what are you worried about?" You know that old argument, that old logic. Oh, yeah, good. (Laughter)
Yeah, tell me about the people that are just getting out of prison because of the DNA, if they had nothing to hide. It's just - listen, this country is owned by the ownership class, they do pretty much what they want. I figure it's like a freak show. Here's what I do. You know what I do?
To me, if you're born in the world, you get a ticket to the freak show. They give you a ticket to the freak show. If you're born in America, you got a front-row seat. (Laughter) So some people are in the freak show - we got our freaks. Then some people, they want to fix the freaks. These are the ACLU lawyers, environmentalists. "We must fix the freaks. We're gonna fix them up. Oh, isn't that terrible? Let's do this."
And then there are folks who just watch the freak show - that's me. And some of us get to write about it or talk about it, and I do that.
Tavis: That's you, too.
Carlin: Yeah, and say, "Oh, look at you, look how badly you're doing." I don't even count myself in. I say, "Look how badly you folks are doing. How did you do this to yourselves? Why did you let them do this to you?"
Tavis: You've been courageous talking about race. And I say courageous because you're a White guy. Where do you find the courage to take the risk to, in a stand-up formula, talk about race, because race, for a lot of folk, ain't so funny?
Carlin: Sure. I think, first of all, there's a personality of mine on view. There is a - people see in me on stage a person who isn't a threat to them, a kind of a vulnerable figure. I may raise my voice, I may sound a little irritated, people think it's anger - it's irritation, really.
Tavis: Hold the phone, hold the thought, hold the thought. What makes - I'm curious about this - what makes you say to me that people see a sort of vulnerable figure on stage? Your demeanor, your - what do you mean by that?
Carlin: I have tried to analyze -
Tavis: Because I've never felt sorry for you when I see you.
Carlin: No, but I don't mean vulnerable from a victim's standpoint. I just mean a person who has a softer side, a more potentially human side, than just some robot on stage. My manager and I have talked about this thing, this part of what they see, what folks see in me, and he used the word first for me.
He said, "There's a vulnerability about you that they see when you talk, especially when you're talking about sweet things, when you're talking about the little human things." And I'm kind of like your Uncle Charlie who wouldn't hurt you, but he's a bit of a goof, you know? "Oh, that's Uncle Charlie talking, he's okay."
So...Uncle Charlie. I forgot who I was talking to for a second. But you know what I mean. Uncle anybody.
Tavis: I wasn't offended by that.
Carlin: Good.
Tavis: So before the letters come, I understood his point. I was not offended. Go ahead.
Carlin: But I use the term on loan from my manager's analysis, so perhaps I can't defend it as well as he would or describe it as well as he would. But there is a thing they see in me which isn't threatening. We were talking about now why I can, quote, unquote, "get away with some racial stuff."
Tavis: Sure.
Carlin: And if they know anything about the rest of my work or a lot of my work, they kind of know where I stand on things and that I'm - that I have a kind of a series of issues that I have similar positions on.
Tavis: I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I'm fascinated as to whether or not you think that there are too many dumb comics out there. By dumb comics I mean you made it very clear to me earlier, and I was not surprised to hear - my first time meeting you, but I was not surprised to hear your response when you said to me that you want the audience to know that you are thinking.
Carlin: Yes.
Tavis: You put some work and some effort and some thought into this routine.
Carlin: Yeah, right. That there are good ideas underneath the jokes.
Tavis: Absolutely, and I respect that and I'm not surprised to hear you say that. Do you think, though, that there aren't enough comedians who do that, or is it not your place to cast aspersion on those other comedians?
Carlin: I think a lot of the people with that set of tools that I'm talking about, the tools that I seem to have, I think a lot of them didn't drift into comedy with those tools. I kind of think analytically, and a lot of those folks just became lawyers (laughter) or writers and teachers. Some of the skills are similar.
My particular genetic package and the way I was brought up and the things that happened in my childhood pointed me toward this, and I've lasted all this time because I've stayed at my stand-up work. I didn't drift off into movies and suddenly ignore my stand-up. I worked at my craft the whole time and tried to improve it and got better, just like you get better playing the violin.
There are levels in any art - and this is an art; it's writing and it's interpreting the world. There are dumb movies and there are smart movies. There are songs that are dumb - that are dumb as hell - (laughter) and then there's really smart stuff. So that's just true of every walk and every corner of life, I think, that you would find that, and I don't think too many would be the right way for me to say it anyway.
Tavis: Just last week it was announced that George Carlin will be awarded the annual Mark Twain Prize for Humor at the Kennedy Center in Washington. Organizers say the ceremony will go on as planned and will be broadcast early next year right here on PBS.
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