E-mail a friendJabari Asim
airdate April 18, 2007
An accomplished poet, playwright and fiction writer, Jabari Asim has been described as one of the most influential African American literary critics of his generation. He is deputy editor of The Washington Post Book World and also writes a weekly syndicated column on everything from politics to pop culture. He's written for local theater companies and is the author of A Road to Freedom, a novel for young adults. Asim's latest work is The N Word, which traces the growth of the word in America.
The author of The N Word discusses an end to racism (1:02).
Full Interview (10:44)
Jabari Asim
Tavis: Jabari Asim is a syndicated columnist and deputy editor of "The Washington Post: Book World" whose work has also appeared in "Essence," "Salon," and the "L.A. Times." His new book is called "The N-Word: Who Can Say It, Who Shouldn't, and Why." Jabari, nice to have you on the program.
Jabari Asim: Thank you.
Tavis: Let me start with why you decided to call the book "The N-Word?" We famously now know - or perhaps depending on one's perspective infamously now know of the work of Randall Kennedy at Harvard, who called his book "Nigger." You called yours "The N-Word." Let me start with why.
Asim: Well, one reason is just looking at the reaction to his book. I think that some people were even distracted so much by the title that they didn't engage his arguments, or what he had to say. And also, I'm actually a little more comfortable using the N-word myself than using the word it represents. So I thought it might be easier to get the message out, as it were, to a larger group of readers.
Tavis: I get your point about message. Let me go inside a little deeper and ask why you are more comfortable saying the N-word? I'm just curious.
Asim: Well, I grew up in one of those houses where we weren't allowed to say it. Of course, we had a long list of words we weren't allowed to say.
Tavis: You could say in your house, yeah.
Asim: Right, right.
Tavis: Sounds like my house (laughs).
Asim: But that was one of them, so I've never, just as a matter of practice, as a matter of habit, been about saying the word. So even when I set out to propose this project I called it "The N-Word."
Tavis: I wonder whether or not you think, though, while on the one hand your point about Randy Kennedy's book was that some got distracted by the word and didn't hear his arguments - whether you agree or disagree - they didn't even hear his arguments. Some people did not; I accept that. On the other hand, one could argue that by watering down what this word is and what it means, by calling it "The N-Word," perhaps you don't foster the kind of earnest exchange that you're after.
Asim: Right. Well, I call that an inescapable paradox. At some point, I acknowledge, you have to say the word. You have to address the word if you're going to address the racism that it symbolizes. So I use the word actually a lot within the text. Nigger's actually said. But I do try to keep it to a minimum.
Tavis: I was fascinated more by the subtitle, honestly, than I was by the title. "Who Can Say It, Who Shouldn't, and Why." Let's start with that first part. Who can say the N-word?
Asim: Well, I think it is the proper providence of, say, historians. If you're gonna do a history of this country, you're gonna have to deal frankly with race relations and you're gonna have to deal with the fact that in many points in history, this was the word used to describe us. So I think it's impossible to write a complete history without engaging the word.
I also think that artists are free to use the word - Richard Pryor, George Carlin, Lenny Bruce, August Wilson, Stevie Wonder, Ralph Ellison. There's a long list of really valuable artists who have used the word, so I don't think we should get caught up on whether they should use it or not. I think we should instead pay attention to their art.
Where I think it doesn't have a place is in polite conversation in the public square. Casual conversation between individuals of the same race or of different races.
Tavis: Part of the consequence, though, of artists using it - and we could debate all day long, since art is subjective - we could debate all day long; I'm not going to ask that question, how we define what an artist is or who an artist is - we'd be here all night having that conversation. That said, I think it's clear, though, that never mind the definition of who an artist is or what an artist is, when artists put this word out there on demand, it necessitates, it breeds a conversation born of what their art was designed to do.
So when you say that artists can use it, you're almost conceding the fact that if I take their artwork seriously - their artistry seriously - then I'm going to engage in some dialogue about this word.
Asim: Right. And I think you do - I think we need to engage in dialogue about the word, so I think that's very important. I think where it gets complicated is there are artists who appear to use it gratuitously. But I say that August Wilson and Stevie Wonder and people like that, they're using the word very effectively because they're using it to comment on our racial preoccupations; on our lack of racial progress.
There are other artists and people in general who appear to use the word just to exploit our racial differences and our history of racial conflict, which I think is something different.
Tavis: I hear the argument that you're making. For a person watching right now, give me an equation for how one figures, factors, whether you fall into the Stevie Wonder category of artistry or the other category of artistry.
Asim: Right. Well, no one's really qualified to be the arbiter of that, so I think the safe thing to do - what I suggest people do is avoid absolutes. For example, there's a group of people who don't want rap artists who use the N-word to be eligible for Grammy nominations. I think a blanket response like that is dangerous.
I think we really have to consider things on a case-by-case basis. We have to acknowledge that there are rappers who've used the word with an awareness of history, and there are others who don't. It's like Duke Ellington said, "There's really only good music and bad music. We can't get caught up too much in these miniscule divisions within it." So I say tread cautiously, tread carefully, and avoid absolutes.
Tavis: You had some names on your list earlier of artists who you gave - you, Jabari, gave the information to use the word because of how they have employed it. Some of those artists happened not to be African American.
Asim: Right.
Tavis: There are some people who think that this word is the provenance of African Americans specifically, and that no one outside of our race - you mentioned, again, on your list, a person who happened not to be Black; I think now Jennifer Lopez, who got in some trouble, you recall, a couple years ago on a record with - was it Ja Rule on that record?
I think it was Ja Rule who, on a record with her, Jennifer Lopez used this word. What about the notion that the word is owned by Black folk, and that Black folk ought to be the only arbiters of if it's used, how it's used, and when it's used?
Asim: Well, I'm very sympathetic to that viewpoint. It's not one that I share, however. I think that once we start drawing lines like that, we confine the debate too much. I agree with people who thought that Jennifer Lopez's use of it, for example, was gratuitous and hard to defend, but at the same time, I don't see a solution being okay, everyone who's not an African American artist, don't use this word. Because it would take some of the art out of the arena of public opinion that deserves a place there.
Tavis: The "60 Minutes" piece that Don Imus was featured in some years ago - "The New York Times'" Bob Herbert specifically brought this back up again in one of his columns last week - that Don Imus had a person on his staff who, he said to Mike Wallace, was on the show to write nigger jokes. Again, if the word is not a wholly-owned subsidiary of Black people, then you get folk outside of the race who feel they have the right - the wherewithal to use it based upon the fact that it's used by African Americans.
Asim: I think that it's disingenuous for people like Imus to use that kind of argument. I think that he should be free to use the word, but he should do so readily acknowledging the possibility that there will be consequences. That he has misused the word, and he will pay for it. But I think if we say, "Don't use the word at all," we missed the opportunity to do something constructive - which is what Lenny Bruce did when he used the word.
He was a White man who used the word. He used it to expose White racism very effectively - perhaps more so than I could have. And I think we have to allow that possibility and the price we pay for allowing that possibility is occasionally having to deal with a Don Imus.
Tavis: One of the things that has happened over the last few days - literally in the last 72 hours or so - this conversation - I don't know if you've noticed this; I'm sure you have, being the astute purveyor of our culture that you are. But over the last 72 hours, certainly, I have seen, as have others, the mainstream media attempt - and let me just be frank - not just attempt; in fact, they have changed this conversation.
Of course, the shootings at Virginia Tech changed the whole story, and our heart still goes out to the victims of that tragedy. But for that story, though, we would still be, I think, looking at a conversation in America right now, first and foremost, on talk radio and beyond, about this wholesale change, this wholesale turn, from talking about what Imus did or didn't do - what he said or didn't say, and what the punishment should have been and should not have been - to a conversation about the hip hop community.
What do you make of this turn where the mainstream media apparently just got tired of talking about Imus and then everybody wanted to blame and spank and chastise, if you will, the hip hop community for using this word and other words like "ho," et cetera, et cetera. What did you make of that conversation?
Asim: Well, to me that speaks to the myopia of the mainstream media, because that conversation has already been going on for years - on your show, in "Essence" magazine, at Spellman College. There's always been a debate within the African American community about the proper use of these terms, and not just in hip hop but stand-up comics, popular culture.
We're obviously still debating it. The mainstream media seems to be coming to it as if it's brand new, saying, "What about this?" Well, we've been talking about it for a long time. C. DeLores Tucker went to her grave talking about these things. You know it, I know it, "Essence" magazine knows it, but the mainstream media is - seems to be light years behind in coming to this particular issue.
Tavis: Here's a two-part question. Will this conversation ever - about the N-word specifically - will this conversation ever be put to bed, number one, and how realistic is it, number two, when you have kids, literally - you can walk down the street from this studio and see kids getting out of school any given day - kids who refer to each other. Is the conversation ever put to bed?
Asim: Right, well, I think that we will always have problems with the N-word as long as racism exists. I don't think the word can be viewed outside of that context, and forgive me, but I'm a little skeptical about envisioning an end to racism. At the same time, we had conversations like this during slavery. Just two Black men saying, "What if we could be free? What if we could effect emancipation?"
And we had other African Americans say, "Come on, that's not a possibility. We've been slaves a long time. Our children are growing up slaves. They're accustomed to being slaves." But still, we challenged that notion and we eventually became free. I think that our language still retains residues of our enslavement, and we have to continue to resist them.
Tavis: So you don't think that this conversation was a waste of time?
Asim: I hope not.
Tavis: Yeah. (Laughter) The new book by Jabari Asim is called "The N-Word," all jokes aside. "The N-Word: Who Can Say It, Who Shouldn't, and Why." Jabari, thanks for coming on the program. Good to see you.
Asim: Oh, my pleasure. Thank you.
Tavis: My pleasure.
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