E-mail a friendTommie Shelby
airdate February 17, 2006
Harvard University professor Dr. Tommie Shelby teaches African American studies. He's written articles on racism, exploitation and ideology, and his publications include Blackness and Blood and Race and Social Justice. He also co-edited Hip-Hop and Philosophy. His new book, We Who Are Dark, looks at racial solidarity throughout history. Shelby earned his Ph.D. at the University of Pittsburgh and his B.A. at Florida A & M. He was previously Assistant Professor of Philosophy at Ohio State University.
Tommie Shelby
Tavis: Tommie Shelby is an Associate Professor of Social Sciences and African American Studies at Harvard University. His most recent book is a look at the notion of Black solidarity. The book is called "We Who Are Dark: The Philosophical Foundations of Black Solidarity.' He joins us tonight from New York. Professor Shelby, nice to have you on the program, sir.
Tommie Shelby: Thanks so much for having me on.
Tavis: Let me start with the obvious question. When you say Black solidarity, put another way, Black unity, is that possible or is that oxymoronic?
Shelby: (Laughter) I think it's certainly possible. There are plenty of challenges to it. I mean, I actually think there's already a fair amount of solidarity between Black people as it stands right now. There is political solidarity. I mean, obviously, you could have greater cohesion, you could have more people committed to it, but I certainly think that Blacks can agree about a range of issues and still work together politically to move us forward.
Tavis: And yet if we're going to be truthful about it, inside of Black America, if you and I had a dime, Tommy, for every time we have heard, "The problem with Black folks is we can't get together;' "The problem with Black people is we ain't got no unity." If we had a dime for every time we heard that, we would both be independently wealthy. So if you believe that Black solidarity does exist even now to a large extent, why does that perception exist inside of Black America that it in fact does not exist?
Shelby: Well, I guess - some people, I think, regard Black solidarity as everybody who's Black will be committed to it, but of course, this has never been the case. Even when we've been most unified, there have always been some people who defected, always some people who looked out for their own interests. I think that there is sort of a growing divide by population now, especially along the dimensions of class, sometimes ideologically, I think also lends something to that.
Probably the greatest, if you'd like, fact about the current situation that leads people to think there's not much solidarity is because of a kind of growing physical separation of Black people. Black people used to live together in the same communities and with, you know, greater racial progress. A number of Blacks that are educated and had other sorts of advantages were able to move out of Black communities into wealthier, more integrated or even white communities. I think that sense of physical separation along with ideological disagreements and class differences lead people to think that Black solidarity is not really possible.
Tavis: I think a moment ago in an answer to an earlier question, you started down this road, but I want to go a little farther if we might or if we can. When you talk about Black solidarity, again to put it another way, Black unity, what is intrinsically different about Black solidarity as compared to other groups, other entities? What's intrinsically different about Black solidarity?
Shelby: Well, what's different - I suppose that there are some - I take it that the point of Black solidarity right is to try to bring about a more just society, a special society that satisfies the demand for racial justice. Black people obviously have a real stake in that because, being Black, they experience various forms of anti-Black prejudice and bias that limit our opportunities, limit our freedoms, make it difficult for us to flourish. I think that that dimension, I mean, being subject to racial discrimination that's long-standing, that reflects a long history of oppression, leaves us to think of ourselves as a unified political community.
Tavis: You and I are part of the same generation, but clearly there are any number of generations of Black folk who have struggled with this notion of Black solidarity. Talk to me as we speak today about how this notion is different from one generation to the next. I raise that specifically because right now, as you and I both know, this generation of Black folk coming on line now, those in our generation and behind us, we represent the first generation of Black folk who will assume - and are in fact assuming - positions of responsibility and leadership and authority.
But we do so, interestingly as you well know, as the first generation of Black folk to lead who did not come out of the struggle. We've always had leaders that either came out of slavery or out of segregation. Our generation is the hope of Dr. King's dream. We don't know what it means to struggle firsthand. That's not a suggested racism. It's not still the most intractable issue in America, but we do have a different experience than our ancestors. So is the notion and how we process this notion of Black solidarity different for us generationally than it was for previous generations of Black folk?
Shelby: I think it is. I mean, I think probably a lot of the struggle in the past was over basic constitutional protection. I mean, the right to vote, the right to live where you want, you know, the right to an education that's not a matter of being segregated in communities that don't have resources, don't have good teachers. I mean, I think that one of the things that happened when we gained a lot from the civil rights movement was that we basically got most of what we're going to get in terms of formal constitutional protection.
Most of the things we were dealing with were various forms of racial prejudice that play themselves out in administration of laws and the enforcement of anti-discrimination laws. There, it's more difficult because we're not focused on trying to, you know, have a new amendment, say, to the Constitution so much as trying to make sure that the formal guarantees that we have are actually enforced. There, it's much more difficult to focus our energies.
It's also clear that what I think of as the most difficult problem facing us now is the persistence of ghetto poverty and I think there are a number of people who have sort of lost sympathy with the worst off in the community probably because of advantages that are open to them. I think those differences of not focusing so much on constitutional guarantees, focusing much more on economic inequalities and educational differences, that that shifts the political terrain quite dramatically from where it used to be.
Tavis: If I might take time with your last formulation and just tweak it just a little bit, there are those - I'm sure you've heard this. I hear it from time to time and, matter of fact, hearing it increasingly - this notion that the most difficult challenge to Black solidarity in the minds of some is in fact the notion of integration. Now I know that argument sounds counter-intuitive to some, but I wonder what your take is on the role that integration plays with regard to this notion of Black solidarity.
Shelby: Sure. I guess I think it's certainly a challenge because historically, like I said before, we've lived together in the same communities. The physical separation, especially given that it's joined with the ones who are able to live in integrated neighborhoods, are the ones who are the most advantaged and who, because of educational advantages or income or wealth, are able to avoid some of the worst forms of racism and exclusion. So I think that it's that that we mainly have to focus on.
Tavis: In the book, you call for your version of what you phrase as "pragmatic nationalism" as the solution to this quagmire of Black solidarity. Talk to me about pragmatic nationalism.
Shelby: Well, I think that historically we've thought, or at least some people have thought, that Black solidarity is something that's intrinsically valuable. That is, like political solidarity is intrinsically valuable. Of course, Black social solidarity and culture solidarity can be intrinsically valuable. I mean, a lot of Black people enjoy the company of other Black people. Nothing wrong with that. A lot of Black people enjoy Black culture and want to experience that together. Nothing wrong with thinking that is intrinsically valuable.
But I think, when it comes to political solidarity, contesting state power, contesting exclusion and discrimination, there we should think of our political solidarity as pragmatic. That is, something that is a strategy for bringing about a more just society so that part of what we're trying to do is get to a point, at least as I see it, where that kind of political solidarity is not really needed. Though we might continue to maintain other forms of communal solidarity that we value intrinsically, the pragmatic part is to focus on moving forward politically, but not because that's intrinsically valuable for us like we want to have our own nation state or live in segregated communities. But rather, it's a strategy. It's a means.
Tavis: To your last point, since we're conducting this conversation on PBS and not BET, I assume there are a couple of white folk watching (laughter). So if I'm a white American watching this program, why should I not feel left out of, offended by or feel that this conversation about Black solidarity has no value where my life is concerned? Why should I not feel that way?
Shelby: Sure. I mean, I think this is a serious problem because I think a lot of white Americans, progressive, liberal white Americans, do want to see Blacks progress and are troubled by the idea of a Black political solidarity - and this speaks to your earlier question about integration.
It seems to me that it's possible for Blacks to maintain their solidarity together politically, pushing for racial justice, pushing for greater racial equality, trying to abolish ghetto poverty while, at the same time, reaching out for broader issues and focusing on, you know, economic inequality, focusing on better education, health care, dealing with threats to our constitutional protections. In those ways, reach out beyond our own political solidarity and our own sort of narrow group interests to broader interests.
And, of course, historically Black solidarity has not excluded whites. I mean, the civil rights movement included a number of white people and non-whites who were concerned about equality and liberty in the United States and knew that Blacks were among the worst off and wanted to struggle with us to make our society much better. So I don't think that we have to choose between, you know, Black solidarity and interracial forms of solidarity as we try to bring about a more just society.
What we have to make clear is that Black political solidarity doesn't exclude. It's not necessarily separatist in any sense. It's just a matter of a sense of group sentiment that allows us to support each other and work together and have a sense of loyalty as we fight for things that all of us care about.
Tavis: I think what I hear you saying is that, when you make Black America better, you make all of America better.
Shelby: I think that's right.
Tavis: We'll close on that note. The new book by Harvard professor, Tommie Shelby, is "We Who Are Dark: The Philosophical Foundations of Black Solidarity.' Professor Shelby, enlightening conversation. Thanks for your insight. Glad to have you on.
Shelby: Thanks for having me.
Tavis: Up next on this program, two filmmakers behind the Oscar-nominated documentary, "God Sleeps in Rwanda.' Stay with us.
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